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A few words about AOL and Yahoo

dmccunney
On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 5:04 PM, Thomas Mueller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> How busy are those eCS lists on Yahoogroups?

Note that Verizon has acquired Yahoo and plans to rebrand it.  It
already owned AOL.  It has informed Verizon email users that Verizon
will no longer provide email services, and that they should create and
switch to an AOL account for email.

I do not expect them to maintain Yahoo email too, and I'll be more
than a bit surprised if Yahoo Groups still exist after the dust
settles.

Note as well that if you post to a list like this from an AOL or Yahoo
account, it is likely to be classified as spam.  AOL and Yahoo had a
problem - both had been hacked, there were oodles of AOL and Yahoo
addresses available for forgery, and it's trivial to change the From:
header in email. Massive amounts of spam were emanating from forged
AOL and Yahoo addresses.  To combat the problem, both turned on
provisions of the DKIP specifications.  One required that all email
from AOL and Yahoo accounts be digitally signed to prove it was from
who it claimed to be from. Another required that the email not be
*changed* in transit.

This *broke* mailing lists, as the list software must modify the email
headers as part of what it does.  The changes are noted in the
modified headers, and what happens next depends on the recipient's
email server.  Some simply discard the list mail undelivered as spam.
Others accept delivery, but mark it spam, and it doesn't appear in the
recipient's Inbox.  (GMail does that. Gregg Eshelman posts from a
Yahoo account, and every one of his messages to the FreeDOS list gets
labeled spam here and must be reclassified.)

Folks complained, and AOL and Yahoo's response was essentially "Don't
use mailing lists.  Use web forums like we provide."

If you post from an AOL or Yahoo address, you have three choices:

Don't participate in mailing lists

Participate, but be aware not everyone may see your posts

Find a different email provider
______
Dennis
Who hates to be the bearer of bad news, but...
https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519

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Re: A few words about AOL and Yahoo

Karen Lewellen
All I can contribute to this discussion is that yahoogroups, many of them,
still exist. I am a member of several getting posts  from them each day.
However, I do not subscribe using either a yahoo or  aol e-mail, and never
had one from Verizon.
those I know with yahoo e-mails began changing after the last major hack a
few weeks back.
It is interesting that Verizon is getting out of the e-mail business, since
such  communications are a part of their sell phones.
While I can imagine they will want to dump yahoo e-mail, the hack was quite
extensive, I personally feel they may try to save yahoogroups, it is a
positive working generally well, at least for those not reading on yahoo.
Just my take,
Kare


On Tue, 25 Apr 2017, dmccunney wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 5:04 PM, Thomas Mueller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> How busy are those eCS lists on Yahoogroups?
>
> Note that Verizon has acquired Yahoo and plans to rebrand it.  It
> already owned AOL.  It has informed Verizon email users that Verizon
> will no longer provide email services, and that they should create and
> switch to an AOL account for email.
>
> I do not expect them to maintain Yahoo email too, and I'll be more
> than a bit surprised if Yahoo Groups still exist after the dust
> settles.
>
> Note as well that if you post to a list like this from an AOL or Yahoo
> account, it is likely to be classified as spam.  AOL and Yahoo had a
> problem - both had been hacked, there were oodles of AOL and Yahoo
> addresses available for forgery, and it's trivial to change the From:
> header in email. Massive amounts of spam were emanating from forged
> AOL and Yahoo addresses.  To combat the problem, both turned on
> provisions of the DKIP specifications.  One required that all email
> from AOL and Yahoo accounts be digitally signed to prove it was from
> who it claimed to be from. Another required that the email not be
> *changed* in transit.
>
> This *broke* mailing lists, as the list software must modify the email
> headers as part of what it does.  The changes are noted in the
> modified headers, and what happens next depends on the recipient's
> email server.  Some simply discard the list mail undelivered as spam.
> Others accept delivery, but mark it spam, and it doesn't appear in the
> recipient's Inbox.  (GMail does that. Gregg Eshelman posts from a
> Yahoo account, and every one of his messages to the FreeDOS list gets
> labeled spam here and must be reclassified.)
>
> Folks complained, and AOL and Yahoo's response was essentially "Don't
> use mailing lists.  Use web forums like we provide."
>
> If you post from an AOL or Yahoo address, you have three choices:
>
> Don't participate in mailing lists
>
> Participate, but be aware not everyone may see your posts
>
> Find a different email provider
> ______
> Dennis
> Who hates to be the bearer of bad news, but...
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Freedos-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
>
>

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Re: A few words about AOL and Yahoo

dmccunney
On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Karen Lewellen
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> All I can contribute to this discussion is that yahoogroups, many of them,
> still exist. I am a member of several getting posts  from them each day.

I'm on several myself.  The question is how long they will *continue* to exist.

> However, I do not subscribe using either a yahoo or  aol e-mail, and never
> had one from Verizon.

Affected folks were Verizon subscribers with verizon.net addresses.

> those I know with yahoo e-mails began changing after the last major hack a
> few weeks back.

Yahoo had been hacked repeatedly.  The price Verizon paid to acquire
them dropped after due diligence revealed the full extent of the
hacking.

Reports about the most recent hack were revealed in December 2016, but
were unclear about when the breaches actually took place,  (It's the
sort of thing that can remain unnoticed till rather after it actually
takes place.  The damage was likely already done.)

> It is interesting that Verizon is getting out of the e-mail business, since
> such  communications are a part of their sell phones.

That's not quite what's happening.  As mentioned, Verizon owns AOL.
Verizon itself just wants to provide connectivity, through their
cellular and FIOS services.  It doesn't want to provide content served
by their connectivity.  Effectively, they are transferring email
provisioning to a wholly owned subsidiary who is in that business.
Verizon sees no need to duplicate something AOL does, and is simply
trying to hand it off to AOL.  (My suspicion is that Gmail is more
likely to be the email service Verizon users with switch to.  Changing
to a new provider is a regal pain, and Verizon users are not happy
about being told they have to.)

> While I can imagine they will want to dump yahoo e-mail, the hack was quite
> extensive, I personally feel they may try to save yahoogroups, it is a
> positive working generally well, at least for those not reading on yahoo.

Possible.  It's all about the money.  What does it cost to provision
and maintain Yahoo Groups?  What will Verizon *make* from the service?

Like any other big outfit, Verizon management has a fiduciary
responsibility to invest corporate funds in things that provide the
highest return.  (And management can be sued by shareholders who think
they *aren't* doing so.)  I've seen corporate divisions folded because
while the operation was profitable, it wasn't profitable *enough*.

Verizon may keep Yahoo Groups active (but change the name as part of
the re-branding.)  I'm just not making any bets on it.

> Just my take,
> Kare
______
Dennis

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Re: A few words about AOL and Yahoo

Karen Lewellen-2
In reply to this post by dmccunney
From: Karen Lewellen <[hidden email]>

All I can contribute to this discussion is that yahoogroups, many of them,
still exist. I am a member of several getting posts  from them each day.
However, I do not subscribe using either a yahoo or  aol e-mail, and never
had one from Verizon.
those I know with yahoo e-mails began changing after the last major hack a
few weeks back.
It is interesting that Verizon is getting out of the e-mail business, since
such  communications are a part of their sell phones.
While I can imagine they will want to dump yahoo e-mail, the hack was quite
extensive, I personally feel they may try to save yahoogroups, it is a
positive working generally well, at least for those not reading on yahoo.
Just my take,
Kare


On Tue, 25 Apr 2017, dmccunney wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 5:04 PM, Thomas Mueller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> How busy are those eCS lists on Yahoogroups?
>
> Note that Verizon has acquired Yahoo and plans to rebrand it.  It
> already owned AOL.  It has informed Verizon email users that Verizon
> will no longer provide email services, and that they should create and
> switch to an AOL account for email.
>
> I do not expect them to maintain Yahoo email too, and I'll be more
> than a bit surprised if Yahoo Groups still exist after the dust
> settles.
>
> Note as well that if you post to a list like this from an AOL or Yahoo
> account, it is likely to be classified as spam.  AOL and Yahoo had a
> problem - both had been hacked, there were oodles of AOL and Yahoo
> addresses available for forgery, and it's trivial to change the From:
> header in email. Massive amounts of spam were emanating from forged
> AOL and Yahoo addresses.  To combat the problem, both turned on
> provisions of the DKIP specifications.  One required that all email
> from AOL and Yahoo accounts be digitally signed to prove it was from
> who it claimed to be from. Another required that the email not be
> *changed* in transit.
>
> This *broke* mailing lists, as the list software must modify the email
> headers as part of what it does.  The changes are noted in the
> modified headers, and what happens next depends on the recipient's
> email server.  Some simply discard the list mail undelivered as spam.
> Others accept delivery, but mark it spam, and it doesn't appear in the
> recipient's Inbox.  (GMail does that. Gregg Eshelman posts from a
> Yahoo account, and every one of his messages to the FreeDOS list gets
> labeled spam here and must be reclassified.)
>
> Folks complained, and AOL and Yahoo's response was essentially "Don't
> use mailing lists.  Use web forums like we provide."
>
> If you post from an AOL or Yahoo address, you have three choices:
>
> Don't participate in mailing lists
>
> Participate, but be aware not everyone may see your posts
>
> Find a different email provider
> ______
> Dennis
> Who hates to be the bearer of bad news, but...
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Freedos-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
>
>

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Re: A few words about AOL and Yahoo

Karen Lewellen-2
In reply to this post by dmccunney
From: dmccunney <[hidden email]>

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Karen Lewellen
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> All I can contribute to this discussion is that yahoogroups, many of them,
> still exist. I am a member of several getting posts  from them each day.

I'm on several myself.  The question is how long they will *continue* to exist.

> However, I do not subscribe using either a yahoo or  aol e-mail, and never
> had one from Verizon.

Affected folks were Verizon subscribers with verizon.net addresses.

> those I know with yahoo e-mails began changing after the last major hack a
> few weeks back.

Yahoo had been hacked repeatedly.  The price Verizon paid to acquire
them dropped after due diligence revealed the full extent of the
hacking.

Reports about the most recent hack were revealed in December 2016, but
were unclear about when the breaches actually took place,  (It's the
sort of thing that can remain unnoticed till rather after it actually
takes place.  The damage was likely already done.)

> It is interesting that Verizon is getting out of the e-mail business, since
> such  communications are a part of their sell phones.

That's not quite what's happening.  As mentioned, Verizon owns AOL.
Verizon itself just wants to provide connectivity, through their
cellular and FIOS services.  It doesn't want to provide content served
by their connectivity.  Effectively, they are transferring email
provisioning to a wholly owned subsidiary who is in that business.
Verizon sees no need to duplicate something AOL does, and is simply
trying to hand it off to AOL.  (My suspicion is that Gmail is more
likely to be the email service Verizon users with switch to.  Changing
to a new provider is a regal pain, and Verizon users are not happy
about being told they have to.)

> While I can imagine they will want to dump yahoo e-mail, the hack was quite
> extensive, I personally feel they may try to save yahoogroups, it is a
> positive working generally well, at least for those not reading on yahoo.

Possible.  It's all about the money.  What does it cost to provision
and maintain Yahoo Groups?  What will Verizon *make* from the service?

Like any other big outfit, Verizon management has a fiduciary
responsibility to invest corporate funds in things that provide the
highest return.  (And management can be sued by shareholders who think
they *aren't* doing so.)  I've seen corporate divisions folded because
while the operation was profitable, it wasn't profitable *enough*.

Verizon may keep Yahoo Groups active (but change the name as part of
the re-branding.)  I'm just not making any bets on it.

> Just my take,
> Kare
______
Dennis

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Re: A few words about AOL and Yahoo

Felix Miata-3
In reply to this post by dmccunney
dmccunney composed on 2017-04-25 22:29 (UTC-0400):

> Verizon may keep Yahoo Groups active (but change the name as part of
> the re-branding.)

I hope it continues. A lot of useful help groups and archives will disappear if
it does not.

Before it became yahoogroups in 2001 it was eGroups, which IIRC was the
originator, not a rebrander. Before eGroups, mailing lists were primarily
created and maintained by various interests serving the specific groups that
needed them, using MajorDomo or software like it; before web forums existed,
when Usenet was still useful to and known by the majority of the minority of
people using the internet at all.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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Re: A few words about AOL and Yahoo

Thomas Mueller
In reply to this post by dmccunney
from dmccunney:

> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 5:04 PM, Thomas Mueller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> How busy are those eCS lists on Yahoogroups?

> Note that Verizon has acquired Yahoo and plans to rebrand it.  It
> already owned AOL.  It has informed Verizon email users that Verizon
> will no longer provide email services, and that they should create and
> switch to an AOL account for email.

> I do not expect them to maintain Yahoo email too, and I'll be more
> than a bit surprised if Yahoo Groups still exist after the dust
> settles.

> Note as well that if you post to a list like this from an AOL or Yahoo
> account, it is likely to be classified as spam.  AOL and Yahoo had a
> problem - both had been hacked, there were oodles of AOL and Yahoo
> addresses available for forgery, and it's trivial to change the From:
> header in email. Massive amounts of spam were emanating from forged
> AOL and Yahoo addresses.  To combat the problem, both turned on
> provisions of the DKIP specifications.  One required that all email
> from AOL and Yahoo accounts be digitally signed to prove it was from
> who it claimed to be from. Another required that the email not be
> *changed* in transit.
       
> This *broke* mailing lists, as the list software must modify the email
> headers as part of what it does.  The changes are noted in the
> modified headers, and what happens next depends on the recipient's
> email server.  Some simply discard the list mail undelivered as spam.
> Others accept delivery, but mark it spam, and it doesn't appear in the
> recipient's Inbox.  (GMail does that. Gregg Eshelman posts from a
> Yahoo account, and every one of his messages to the FreeDOS list gets
> labeled spam here and must be reclassified.)
 
> Folks complained, and AOL and Yahoo's response was essentially "Don't
> use mailing lists.  Use web forums like we provide."

> If you post from an AOL or Yahoo address, you have three choices:

> Don't participate in mailing lists

> Participate, but be aware not everyone may see your posts

> Find a different email provider

> Dennis

> Who hates to be the bearer of bad news, but...
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519

I have some @bellsouth.net inboxes/accounts from my days with bellsouth.net .

I also have an AOL free email account.

So I wonder how these will be affected.

For a time, about three weeks, POP3 download from bellsouth.net account was very slow, and only one or two at a time.

That made me switch three mailing list subscriptions to twc.com .

There is also a freemail service at gmx.net as well as premium, paying email account options.

Yahoo has been using an annoying CAPTCHA to get access to webmail or even online help, with letters/numbers that didn't stay still but swam around, so I couldn't solve the CAPTCHA.  And AT&T has the gall to send advertising for their Internet service (DIRECTV or Uverse).

Tom


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Re: A few words about AOL and Yahoo

Karen Lewellen-2
In reply to this post by dmccunney
From: Felix Miata <[hidden email]>

dmccunney composed on 2017-04-25 22:29 (UTC-0400):

> Verizon may keep Yahoo Groups active (but change the name as part of
> the re-branding.)

I hope it continues. A lot of useful help groups and archives will disappear if
it does not.

Before it became yahoogroups in 2001 it was eGroups, which IIRC was the
originator, not a rebrander. Before eGroups, mailing lists were primarily
created and maintained by various interests serving the specific groups that
needed them, using MajorDomo or software like it; before web forums existed,
when Usenet was still useful to and known by the majority of the minority of
people using the internet at all.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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Re: A few words about AOL and Yahoo

Karen Lewellen-2
In reply to this post by dmccunney
From: "Thomas Mueller" <[hidden email]>

from dmccunney:

> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 5:04 PM, Thomas Mueller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> How busy are those eCS lists on Yahoogroups?

> Note that Verizon has acquired Yahoo and plans to rebrand it.  It
> already owned AOL.  It has informed Verizon email users that Verizon
> will no longer provide email services, and that they should create and
> switch to an AOL account for email.

> I do not expect them to maintain Yahoo email too, and I'll be more
> than a bit surprised if Yahoo Groups still exist after the dust
> settles.

> Note as well that if you post to a list like this from an AOL or Yahoo
> account, it is likely to be classified as spam.  AOL and Yahoo had a
> problem - both had been hacked, there were oodles of AOL and Yahoo
> addresses available for forgery, and it's trivial to change the From:
> header in email. Massive amounts of spam were emanating from forged
> AOL and Yahoo addresses.  To combat the problem, both turned on
> provisions of the DKIP specifications.  One required that all email
> from AOL and Yahoo accounts be digitally signed to prove it was from
> who it claimed to be from. Another required that the email not be
> *changed* in transit.

> This *broke* mailing lists, as the list software must modify the email
> headers as part of what it does.  The changes are noted in the
> modified headers, and what happens next depends on the recipient's
> email server.  Some simply discard the list mail undelivered as spam.
> Others accept delivery, but mark it spam, and it doesn't appear in the
> recipient's Inbox.  (GMail does that. Gregg Eshelman posts from a
> Yahoo account, and every one of his messages to the FreeDOS list gets
> labeled spam here and must be reclassified.)

> Folks complained, and AOL and Yahoo's response was essentially "Don't
> use mailing lists.  Use web forums like we provide."

> If you post from an AOL or Yahoo address, you have three choices:

> Don't participate in mailing lists

> Participate, but be aware not everyone may see your posts

> Find a different email provider

> Dennis

> Who hates to be the bearer of bad news, but...
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519

I have some @bellsouth.net inboxes/accounts from my days with bellsouth.net .

I also have an AOL free email account.

So I wonder how these will be affected.

For a time, about three weeks, POP3 download from bellsouth.net account was
very slow, and only one or two at a time.

That made me switch three mailing list subscriptions to twc.com .

There is also a freemail service at gmx.net as well as premium, paying email
account options.

Yahoo has been using an annoying CAPTCHA to get access to webmail or even
online help, with letters/numbers that didn't stay still but swam around, so I
couldn't solve the CAPTCHA.  And AT&T has the gall to send advertising for
their Internet service (DIRECTV or Uverse).

Tom


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Re: A few words about AOL and Yahoo

dmccunney
In reply to this post by Thomas Mueller
On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 11:59 PM, Thomas Mueller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have some @bellsouth.net inboxes/accounts from my days with bellsouth.net .
>
> I also have an AOL free email account.
>
> So I wonder how these will be affected.

They shouldn't be affected at all.  Bell South is not part of Verizon.
It's a separate Baby Bell created by the breakup of the old AT&T.
Verizon owns AOL but it still exists.  Verizon is pushing former
verizon.net email accounts to move to AOL accounts instead.

> For a time, about three weeks, POP3 download from bellsouth.net account was very slow, and only one or two at a time.
>
> That made me switch three mailing list subscriptions to twc.com .
>
> There is also a freemail service at gmx.net as well as premium, paying email account options.

There are a variety of free web based email offers.  I'm betting
Yahoo's will go away, and possibly be mergered into AOL's offering.

> Yahoo has been using an annoying CAPTCHA to get access to webmail or even online help, with letters/numbers that didn't stay still but swam around, so I couldn't solve the CAPTCHA.  And AT&T has the gall to send advertising for their Internet service (DIRECTV or Uverse).

Yahoo has been annoying for quite some time.  My gripe back when was
Yahoo's insistence on sending HTML email, even if you had configured
Yahoo Mail for plain text.  It was a problem for various Yahoo Groups
that were explicitly plain text and didn't want HTML formatted mail.

I have a Yahoo account, created as an alternate for testing, and one
mailing list I own and moderate also goes there as well as to my Gmail
account.  If it goes away, I won't miss it.

> Tom
______
Dennis
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Re: A few words about AOL and Yahoo

dmccunney
In reply to this post by Felix Miata-3
On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 11:36 PM, Felix Miata <[hidden email]> wrote:
> dmccunney composed on 2017-04-25 22:29 (UTC-0400):
>
>> Verizon may keep Yahoo Groups active (but change the name as part of
>> the re-branding.)
>
> I hope it continues. A lot of useful help groups and archives will disappear if
> it does not.

I hope it does too.  I'm just not betting on it.

> Before it became yahoogroups in 2001 it was eGroups, which IIRC was the
> originator, not a rebrander. Before eGroups, mailing lists were primarily
> created and maintained by various interests serving the specific groups that
> needed them, using MajorDomo or software like it; before web forums existed,
> when Usenet was still useful to and known by the majority of the minority of
> people using the internet at all.

I recall eGroups.  Topica was another list provider.  (I created and
manage a Google Groups based list intended to replace a formet Topica
forum when that entity closed the service.)
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Re: A few words about AOL and Yahoo

Karen Lewellen-2
In reply to this post by dmccunney
From: Jim Hall <[hidden email]>

While AOL and Yahoo are interesting topics, they aren't related to
FreeDOS. We seem to be on a tangent, here.

Can this discussion get moved off the FreeDOS list?

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Re: A few words about AOL and Yahoo

Jim Hall-2
In reply to this post by dmccunney
While AOL and Yahoo are interesting topics, they aren't related to
FreeDOS. We seem to be on a tangent, here.

Can this discussion get moved off the FreeDOS list?

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Re: A few words about AOL and Yahoo

Karen Lewellen-2
In reply to this post by dmccunney
From: dmccunney <[hidden email]>

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 11:59 PM, Thomas Mueller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have some @bellsouth.net inboxes/accounts from my days with bellsouth.net .
>
> I also have an AOL free email account.
>
> So I wonder how these will be affected.

They shouldn't be affected at all.  Bell South is not part of Verizon.
It's a separate Baby Bell created by the breakup of the old AT&T.
Verizon owns AOL but it still exists.  Verizon is pushing former
verizon.net email accounts to move to AOL accounts instead.

> For a time, about three weeks, POP3 download from bellsouth.net account was
very slow, and only one or two at a time.
>
> That made me switch three mailing list subscriptions to twc.com .
>
> There is also a freemail service at gmx.net as well as premium, paying email
account options.

There are a variety of free web based email offers.  I'm betting
Yahoo's will go away, and possibly be mergered into AOL's offering.

> Yahoo has been using an annoying CAPTCHA to get access to webmail or even
online help, with letters/numbers that didn't stay still but swam around, so I
couldn't solve the CAPTCHA.  And AT&T has the gall to send advertising for
their Internet service (DIRECTV or Uverse).

Yahoo has been annoying for quite some time.  My gripe back when was
Yahoo's insistence on sending HTML email, even if you had configured
Yahoo Mail for plain text.  It was a problem for various Yahoo Groups
that were explicitly plain text and didn't want HTML formatted mail.

I have a Yahoo account, created as an alternate for testing, and one
mailing list I own and moderate also goes there as well as to my Gmail
account.  If it goes away, I won't miss it.

> Tom
______
Dennis
https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519

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