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Re: freedo

Rugxulo
Originally to: ALL


Hi,

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 11:47 AM, Tom Ehlert <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> to reproduce this FIND problem, I tried to setup a new FD1.2 machine.
>
> what I did:
>
> download FD12LGC.ISO
>
> create a new virtual box machine with 512 MB disk
> use FD12LGC.ISO to boot the machine.
> boot machine.
>
> 'Unfortunately, this method of installation is not supported on this
> hardware platform. Please try a different installation method.'
>
> Welcome to the FreeDOS 1.2 operating system.
>
> now what?
> a hint to use the other .ISO would have been be helpful
>
> eventually I figured this out, and setup was successful.


If you read this ...

https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.2/FD12
EADME.md

... it says this:

"
* Bootable CD-ROM
  * Most virtual machines (including VirtualBox)
  * Most 486 or better computers
* Alternate Legacy CD-ROM
  * Virtual Machines (excluding VirtualBox)
  * Most computers that support CD booting.
"

The main page is somewhat less explicit about VBox compatibility:

http://www.freedos.org/download/

"We recommend the CDROM installer for most users. The 'standard' CDROM
image should work on most computers and PC emulators. Older computers
may need the 'legacy' CDROM image instead."

P.S. VirtualBox 5.1.14 was just released today.

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Re: freedo

Jim Hall-2
Originally to: ALL


> On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 11:47 AM, Tom Ehlert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> to reproduce this FIND problem, I tried to setup a new FD1.2 machine.
>>
>> what I did:
>>
>> download FD12LGC.ISO
>>
>> create a new virtual box machine with 512 MB disk
>> use FD12LGC.ISO to boot the machine.
>> boot machine.
>>
>> 'Unfortunately, this method of installation is not supported on this
>> hardware platform. Please try a different installation method.'
>>
>> Welcome to the FreeDOS 1.2 operating system.
>>
>> now what?
>> a hint to use the other .ISO would have been be helpful
>>
>> eventually I figured this out, and setup was successful.



On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Rugxulo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> If you read this ...
>
>
https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.2/FD12R
ADME.md
>
> ... it says this:
[..]


The Download page tries to make this clear, with this message:


>>We recommend the CDROM installer for most users. The "standard" CDROM image
should work on most computers and PC emulators. Older computers may need the
"legacy" CDROM image instead.<<


And below that, the page lists several download options, including
this one that links to FD12CD.iso:


>>CDROM "standard" installer<<


So the page has the correct links.

If that's not clear enough, I have been thinking about tweaking the
download page to provide the links directly beneath each brief, but I
haven't mocked up anything for it yet.


Jim

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Re: freedo

Karen Lewellen-2
In reply to this post by Rugxulo
From: Jim Hall <[hidden email]>

> On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 11:47 AM, Tom Ehlert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> to reproduce this FIND problem, I tried to setup a new FD1.2 machine.
>>
>> what I did:
>>
>> download FD12LGC.ISO
>>
>> create a new virtual box machine with 512 MB disk
>> use FD12LGC.ISO to boot the machine.
>> boot machine.
>>
>> 'Unfortunately, this method of installation is not supported on this
>> hardware platform. Please try a different installation method.'
>>
>> Welcome to the FreeDOS 1.2 operating system.
>>
>> now what?
>> a hint to use the other .ISO would have been be helpful
>>
>> eventually I figured this out, and setup was successful.



On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Rugxulo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> If you read this ...
>
>
https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.2/FD12

ADME.md
>
> ... it says this:
[..]


The Download page tries to make this clear, with this message:


>>We recommend the CDROM installer for most users. The "standard" CDROM image
should work on most computers and PC emulators. Older computers may need the
"legacy" CDROM image instead.<<


And below that, the page lists several download options, including
this one that links to FD12CD.iso:


>>CDROM "standard" installer<<


So the page has the correct links.

If that's not clear enough, I have been thinking about tweaking the
download page to provide the links directly beneath each brief, but I
haven't mocked up anything for it yet.


Jim

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Re: freedo

Karen Lewellen-2
In reply to this post by Rugxulo
From: Jim Hall <[hidden email]>

> On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 11:47 AM, Tom Ehlert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> to reproduce this FIND problem, I tried to setup a new FD1.2 machine.
>>
>> what I did:
>>
>> download FD12LGC.ISO
>>
>> create a new virtual box machine with 512 MB disk
>> use FD12LGC.ISO to boot the machine.
>> boot machine.
>>
>> 'Unfortunately, this method of installation is not supported on this
>> hardware platform. Please try a different installation method.'
>>
>> Welcome to the FreeDOS 1.2 operating system.
>>
>> now what?
>> a hint to use the other .ISO would have been be helpful
>>
>> eventually I figured this out, and setup was successful.



On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Rugxulo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> If you read this ...
>
>
https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.2/FD12R
ADME.md
>
> ... it says this:
[..]


The Download page tries to make this clear, with this message:


>>We recommend the CDROM installer for most users. The "standard" CDROM image
should work on most computers and PC emulators. Older computers may need the
"legacy" CDROM image instead.<<


And below that, the page lists several download options, including
this one that links to FD12CD.iso:


>>CDROM "standard" installer<<


So the page has the correct links.

If that's not clear enough, I have been thinking about tweaking the
download page to provide the links directly beneath each brief, but I
haven't mocked up anything for it yet.


Jim

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Re: freedo

tom ehlert
In reply to this post by Rugxulo
Originally to: ALL


Hi,

to reproduce this FIND problem, I tried to setup a new FD1.2 machine.

what I did:

download FD12LGC.ISO

create a new virtual box machine with 512 MB disk
use FD12LGC.ISO to boot the machine.
boot machine.


'Unfortunately, this method of installation is not supported on this
hardware platform. Please try a different installation method.'

Welcome to the FreeDOS 1.2 operating system.



now what?
a hint to use the other .ISO would have been be helpful

eventually I figured this out, and setup was successful.


some remarks though:

the setup results in

FDCONFIG.SYS:

    12:DOS=UMB

makes virtually never sense. DOS=HIGH,UMB is always the better
option.

what purpose is SHARE supposed to have?
SHARE is useful when the machine is running as a server, or with
windows (or any other multitasking OS).

don't install this.

Tom


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Re: freedo

Karen Lewellen-2
In reply to this post by Rugxulo
From: Tom Ehlert <[hidden email]>

Hi,

to reproduce this FIND problem, I tried to setup a new FD1.2 machine.

what I did:

download FD12LGC.ISO

create a new virtual box machine with 512 MB disk
use FD12LGC.ISO to boot the machine.
boot machine.


'Unfortunately, this method of installation is not supported on this
hardware platform. Please try a different installation method.'

Welcome to the FreeDOS 1.2 operating system.



now what?
a hint to use the other .ISO would have been be helpful

eventually I figured this out, and setup was successful.


some remarks though:

the setup results in

FDCONFIG.SYS:

    12:DOS=UMB

makes virtually never sense. DOS=HIGH,UMB is always the better
option.

what purpose is SHARE supposed to have?
SHARE is useful when the machine is running as a server, or with
windows (or any other multitasking OS).

don't install this.

Tom


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Re: freedos 1.2 LSM files without CR

tom ehlert
In reply to this post by Jim Hall-2

in the APPINFO directory, the LSM files are formatted UNIX style LF,
and not DOS style CR LF

btw: I'm no longer able to locate FreeDOS sources for FIND and it's
maintainer from freedos.org.


Tom


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Re: freedos 1.2 LSM files without CR

Rugxulo
Hi,

On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 6:09 AM, Tom Ehlert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> in the APPINFO directory, the LSM files are formatted UNIX style LF,
> and not DOS style CR LF

Okay, but can't FD EDIT handle that okay? Or is there a different
problem? Or is it just aesthetically annoying because it's not truly
native? I can only agree to complain if it breaks something. There are
still rare cases where tools don't handle LF-only, but overall it's
not critical.

BTW, I think I was told a while back that dos2unix would eventually
become part of FreeDOS. So far, not yet (perhaps 1.3?), but FD does
have wcd under Utilities. FYI, it's already been mirrored to iBiblio
for years.

http://waterlan.home.xs4all.nl/dos2unix.html
https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/util/file/dos2unix/

> btw: I'm no longer able to locate FreeDOS sources for FIND and it's
> maintainer from freedos.org.

http://www.freedos.org/

"What's included?" -> http://www.freedos.org/software/

"BASE" -> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.2/repos/pkg-html/base.html

"find" -> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.2/repos/pkg-html/find.html

"Maintained by" -> "Eric Auer"

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Re: freedos 1.2 LSM files without CR

Eric Auer-3

Rugxulo, Tom,

DOS files should always use DOS linebreaks,
even if some DOS apps can deal with Unix ones.

Even in Windows, if it is wrong with Notepad,
it does not help that Wordpad can deal with it.

In short, I recommend a recode to DOS linebreaks
and DOS codepage for the LSM files, easy enough.

Looking at my current (older) FreeDOS install,
120 LSM files use CRLF and 20 do not. So this
is apparently an old problem! Affected files,
regarding apps installed on my FreeDOS C: are:

Assign, Code, CPI, Debug, Exe2bin, FDKernel,
Invade, Label, Mirror, Mode, Nansi, Print,
Replace, Runtime, Swsubst, Tetris, Undelete
and Unformat.

I see some potential that wrong defaults from
some editor used by me are the cause of some!

Blush... Regards, Eric

>> in the APPINFO directory, the LSM files are formatted
>> UNIX style LF, and not DOS style CR LF
>
> Okay, but can't FD EDIT handle that okay? Or is there a
> different problem? Or is it just aesthetically annoying...



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Re: freedos 1.2 LSM files without CR

Ralf Quint
On 1/19/2017 1:16 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
> Rugxulo, Tom,
>
> DOS files should always use DOS linebreaks,
> even if some DOS apps can deal with Unix ones.
+1

It's just too bad that a lot of people are seeing FreeDOS just as
another (low end) Linux these days...

Ralf

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Re: freedos 1.2 LSM files without CR

Jerome Shidel
In reply to this post by Eric Auer-3
Eric, You and Tom are correct. But, so is Rugxulo.

Is it a problem?

As far as I know, only three programs every touch the LSM files. FDNPKG, FDINST and
FDIMPLES.  Other than install and remove, I don’t think FDNPKG & FDINST do anything
with them. FDIMPLES uses them along with other files and data to create the listings,
groups, installed state, upgrade state, blah blah blah.  But, it does not care which type of
line endings the file uses.

As a side note on this issue, there are many dos2unix programs out there. But, last time I
checked (many years ago) very few unix2dos versions. But alas, this is not an issue either.
Just pipe a file through the V8Power Tools “vstr” program. It cares not what style file uses
but outputs CRLF. It does not use any I/O buffering. So, it is not super fast. But, it can also
strip out blank lines, pull indentation, do simple search and replace, change case, etc. But,
a simple make into DOS line endings is as easy as “type oldfile.lsm | vstr >newfile.lsm”

Jerome
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Re: freedos 1.2 LSM files without CR

Ralf Quint
On 1/19/2017 2:40 PM, Jerome Shidel wrote:
> Eric, You and Tom are correct. But, so is Rugxulo.
Consistency is king...
> Is it a problem?
>
Potentially, yes, as someone might try to open up an LSM file after
install with a real DOS program that does NOT be able to handle LF-only
line endings.
Where do you draw the line when it comes to what is not a problem? How
about I access and save a LSM file with my old Mac OS 9 iMac, which is
producing the then default CR-only line endings?

IMHO, if there are indeed a number of LSM files, then those should be
converted to the standard CR-LF line endings. And it might be a good
idea to do the same check on all other (source) files included in any
FreeDOS distribution as well...

Ralf

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Re: freedos 1.2 LSM files without CR

dmccunney
On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Ralf Quint <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 1/19/2017 2:40 PM, Jerome Shidel wrote:
>> Eric, You and Tom are correct. But, so is Rugxulo.
> Consistency is king...
>> Is it a problem?
>>
> Potentially, yes, as someone might try to open up an LSM file after
> install with a real DOS program that does NOT be able to handle LF-only
> line endings.

> Where do you draw the line when it comes to what is not a problem? How
> about I access and save a LSM file with my old Mac OS 9 iMac, which is
> producing the then default CR-only line endings?

Speaking as a sysadmin who had to support mixed OS environments,
differing EOL conventions in text files were a bane of my existence.

*nix systems used LF as the EOL character.
Mac OS <9 used CR.
DOS/Windows used *both*.

At one point, I had to insert a step in a *nix script that generated
and emailed nightly reports.  The recipients would get them as
attachments on Windows machines, and double click them to read them,
which by default invoked Notepad to display plain text files.  Notepad
was *stupid*.  It saw the LF, so it advanced a line, but it *didn't*
see the CR, so it didn't home the cursor before displaying the next
line, and the result was a stair step effect.when the file was viewed.
I had to call a Unix2DOS utility to adjust the file to CRLF line ends
before emailing it.

*nix was actually more of a problem than Windows.  Most things in *nix
treated a CR as a white space character and didn't care about them,
but a few things had issues.  The problems on either OS tended to be
things that displayed/edited files.  Notepad on Windows had the
problem noted above.  *nix tools displayed ^M wherever a CR was
encountered, which was annoying.

It's probably a good idea to sanitize FreeDOS text files to have CRLF
consistently, but under DOS and Windows I installed editors and file
viewers that understood LF as EOL char and did the right thing so I
didn't have to care, and deliberately saved text files with LF as EOL
character so I could move them to *nix without caring.

How many things available as part of FreeDOS *do* have problems with
LF only EOL markers in text files?

> Ralf
______
Dennis

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Re: freedos 1.2 LSM files without CR

Ralf Quint
On 1/19/2017 3:51 PM, dmccunney wrote:
> How many things available as part of FreeDOS *do* have problems with
> LF only EOL markers in text files?
There are several older compiler which will choke big time, so is likely
a lot of shareware stuff like AsEasyAs or older DOS text editors, dBASE,
etc...

DOS is CR-LF and all files should comply with that by default...

Ralf

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Re: freedos 1.2 LSM files without CR

Mateusz Viste-5
In reply to this post by Jerome Shidel
On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 17:40:03 -0500, Jerome Shidel wrote:
> Other than install and remove, I don’t think
> FDNPKG & FDINST do anything with them.

FDNPKG & FDINST only read the LSM files indeed, and they are designed to
handle both CR/LF and LF line endings ("a line ends with a single LF" +
"if its last byte is CR then trim it"). Surely things will break if one
tries to feed them with evil MAC-style (CR, no LF) line endings.

Mateusz


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Re: freedos 1.2 LSM files without CR

Rugxulo
In reply to this post by Jerome Shidel
Hi,

On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 4:40 PM, Jerome Shidel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As a side note on this issue, there are many dos2unix programs out there. But, last time I
> checked (many years ago) very few unix2dos versions.

A quick check at D2U734B.ZIP shows:  dos2unix.exe, unix2dos.exe,
mac2unix.exe, unix2mac.exe

> But alas, this is not an issue either.
> Just pipe a file through the V8Power Tools “vstr” program. It cares not what style file uses
> but outputs CRLF. It does not use any I/O buffering. So, it is not super fast. But, it can also
> strip out blank lines, pull indentation, do simple search and replace, change case, etc. But,
> a simple make into DOS line endings is as easy as “type oldfile.lsm | vstr >newfile.lsm”

In the old days, e.g. MS-DOS, the shell itself (COMMAND.COM) couldn't
handle .BAT files that weren't CR+LF. So that was a problem then, but
FreeCOM doesn't care.

Also, the built-in (FreeCOM) "TYPE" will convert for you on-the-fly.
So you (only) do "type myfile.txt > myfile.new" to simulate
"unix2dos".

Of course, (IIRC) that changes the timestamp, so that's not a good
solution for important files.

It has been suggested that every file be massaged, but I don't think
that's wise. I wouldn't change every file in every .ZIP to be CR+LF
just to please DOS purists. It's not necessary and might confuse
things. I suggest leaving files inside .ZIPs untouched and unmodified
unless otherwise being updated (new features, bugfixes, etc).

Don't forget that "unzip -a" will also convert text linefeed endings
for you when unpacking (-a  auto-convert any text files). So I think
it's not necessary to forcibly adjust every file (in case someone was
overzealous enough to attempt that).

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Re: freedos 1.2 LSM files without CR

Rugxulo
In reply to this post by dmccunney
Hi,

On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 5:51 PM, dmccunney <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> At one point, I had to insert a step in a *nix script that generated
> and emailed nightly reports.  The recipients would get them as
> attachments on Windows machines, and double click them to read them,
> which by default invoked Notepad to display plain text files.  Notepad
> was *stupid*.  It saw the LF, so it advanced a line, but it *didn't*
> see the CR, so it didn't home the cursor before displaying the next
> line, and the result was a stair step effect.when the file was viewed.
> I had to call a Unix2DOS utility to adjust the file to CRLF line ends
> before emailing it.

In fairness, most people don't use Notepad. Or at least I never do.
It's very simplistic, so it's not what I'd call "programmer friendly".
Almost anything is better except in a pinch. (Remember the old Win9x
days when it wouldn't even handle bigger than 64 kb?) Honestly, I
think Notepad was originally just a demo of the (then-new) Win 3.x UI
(or thereabouts).

> *nix was actually more of a problem than Windows.  Most things in *nix
> treated a CR as a white space character and didn't care about them,
> but a few things had issues.  The problems on either OS tended to be
> things that displayed/edited files.  Notepad on Windows had the
> problem noted above.  *nix tools displayed ^M wherever a CR was
> encountered, which was annoying.

Under vi, you can obviously do ":%s" and then "^V^M" or such.

> It's probably a good idea to sanitize FreeDOS text files to have CRLF
> consistently, but under DOS and Windows I installed editors and file
> viewers that understood LF as EOL char and did the right thing so I
> didn't have to care, and deliberately saved text files with LF as EOL
> character so I could move them to *nix without caring.

There's all kinds of caveats and quirks in many tools.

Even MS-DOS EDIT would almost always forcibly convert tabs to spaces
or some such behavior. Which is only bad with the Makes that can't
handle whitespace instead (which ironically is very few, yet the whole
tab issue persists anyways).

Even some files didn't end in a linefeed at all, so that too would
confuse some tools. The fix, at least on *nix, was "echo wq | ed
myfile.txt".

> How many things available as part of FreeDOS *do* have problems with
> LF only EOL markers in text files?

AFAIK, anything compiled by Turbo Pascal (unless the programmer
manually went out of his/her way to adjust accordingly). Various other
old tools too (e.g. FST Modula-2, maybe TC 2.01 too), but most good
and popular ones don't care, e.g. DJGPP or Free Pascal.

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Re: freedos 1.2 LSM files without CR

dmccunney
On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 6:06 PM, Rugxulo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 5:51 PM, dmccunney <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> At one point, I had to insert a step in a *nix script that generated
>> and emailed nightly reports.  The recipients would get them as
>> attachments on Windows machines, and double click them to read them,
>> which by default invoked Notepad to display plain text files.  Notepad
>> was *stupid*.  It saw the LF, so it advanced a line, but it *didn't*
>> see the CR, so it didn't home the cursor before displaying the next
>> line, and the result was a stair step effect.when the file was viewed.
>> I had to call a Unix2DOS utility to adjust the file to CRLF line ends
>> before emailing it.
>
> In fairness, most people don't use Notepad. Or at least I never do.
> It's very simplistic, so it's not what I'd call "programmer friendly".
> Almost anything is better except in a pinch. (Remember the old Win9x
> days when it wouldn't even handle bigger than 64 kb?) Honestly, I
> think Notepad was originally just a demo of the (then-new) Win 3.x UI
> (or thereabouts).

This was a corporate setting, and most people used what came with the
standard Windows image we deployed.  The default was Notepad as the
plain text editor, and that was what got invoked if you double clicked
a text file attachment to an email in Outlook.

Notepad wasn't what *I* used, but I was IT staff and had greater
freedom about what I could install.

These days, I think the accurate statement is "Most people don't use a
text editor."

>> *nix was actually more of a problem than Windows.  Most things in *nix
>> treated a CR as a white space character and didn't care about them,
>> but a few things had issues.  The problems on either OS tended to be
>> things that displayed/edited files.  Notepad on Windows had the
>> problem noted above.  *nix tools displayed ^M wherever a CR was
>> encountered, which was annoying.
>
> Under vi, you can obviously do ":%s" and then "^V^M" or such.

Yes, and I did.  But who needs the annoyance of needing to?  I did EOL
conversions of files I moved to *nix from DOS/Windows to avaid it.

>> It's probably a good idea to sanitize FreeDOS text files to have CRLF
>> consistently, but under DOS and Windows I installed editors and file
>> viewers that understood LF as EOL char and did the right thing so I
>> didn't have to care, and deliberately saved text files with LF as EOL
>> character so I could move them to *nix without caring.
>
> There's all kinds of caveats and quirks in many tools.
>
> Even MS-DOS EDIT would almost always forcibly convert tabs to spaces
> or some such behavior. Which is only bad with the Makes that can't
> handle whitespace instead (which ironically is very few, yet the whole
> tab issue persists anyways).

I remember trying to find out why a make was failing, and tracing to
it to of spaces instead of tab characters.  This was Unix make as
supplied with AT&T SysV, but I think other makes are better about that
now.

> Even some files didn't end in a linefeed at all, so that too would
> confuse some tools. The fix, at least on *nix, was "echo wq | ed
> myfile.txt".

I don't recall encountering that quirk, for which I'm grateful.

>> How many things available as part of FreeDOS *do* have problems with
>> LF only EOL markers in text files?
>
> AFAIK, anything compiled by Turbo Pascal (unless the programmer
> manually went out of his/her way to adjust accordingly). Various other
> old tools too (e.g. FST Modula-2, maybe TC 2.01 too), but most good
> and popular ones don't care, e.g. DJGPP or Free Pascal.

Okay.  Noted for future reference.  Thanks.
______
Dennis

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Re: freedos 1.2 LSM files without CR

Jerome Shidel
Rugxulo,

It is even worse than you suggested for Turbo Pascal compiled programs for LF only files.  The entire built-in text I/O system can't go anywhere near such files. If it does, you end up with an infinite display loop crash.




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Re: freedos 1.2 LSM files without CR

Rugxulo
Hi,

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Jerome Shidel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It is even worse than you suggested for Turbo Pascal compiled programs for LF only files.
> The entire built-in text I/O system can't go anywhere near such files. If it does, you end up
> with an infinite display loop crash.

But we don't have many TP-compiled programs anyways. And they often
have other problems as well, so it's not like this is the only
potential deal-breaker.

I mean, just off the top of my head, the obvious "problems" are:

* CR+LF only
* no long lines (strings usually limited to 255 bytes)
* no LFN support
* Runtime 200 bug

Sure, you can manually avoid or fix all of those, but it's harder.

The only real benefit to using TP (5.5 freeware or whatever) is very
small size (thanks to smartlinker). FPC, despite its own smartlinking,
is still slightly bigger (but not too bad).

Honestly, I still like freeware TP 5.5, but it's only for sentimental
reasons. Truly, FPC is much better.

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