boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Dennis Fenton
I was just trying to simply copy it. I get an insufficient space message.

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Bell network.
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 11:15 PM
Reply To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS.
Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

On Mar 23, 2017 9:32 PM, "Dennis Fenton" <[hidden email]> wrote:
After some research I decided FreeDOS would be a good replacement for
...
To my dismay I found that the boot disk image is too big to fit on a
1.44 floppy.
...

What program are you using to write the image to your floppy?   Boot images cannot be copied using copy, they must be written with a program like rawwrite or dd.  Does it give an explicit error code or just a message about insufficient space?

Thank you,
Jeremy


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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Dennis Fenton
In reply to this post by Rugxulo
Thanks. I'll try diskcopy.

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Bell network.
  Original Message  
From: Rugxulo
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 12:49 AM
To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS.
Reply To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS.
Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Hi,

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 10:56 PM, Felix Miata <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I just looked inside http://www.freedos.org/download/download/FD12FLOPPY.zip
> "boot floppy", and a 3.5" 1.44M floppy. My floppy has 1457664 total bytes, 2847
> 512 byte sectors. The image downloaded is 1474560 bytes, so the downloaded image
> would not fit here either.

I downloaded the above (FD12FLOPPY.zip) and two of my own images
(BARE_DOS and MetaDOS). All of them have the same size (1474560). A
simple "file *.img" tells me that they all have 2880 sectors. I've
written a few real floppies in recent years with some of these and had
no obvious problems.

The obvious tool to use, among a million others variations, would be DISKCOPY:

http://help.fdos.org/en/hhstndrd/base/diskcopy.htm

(Here's some alternatives.)

https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/mailman/message/35297505/

> -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
> words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

So, just for completeness, (direct or indirect) links to a bunch of
(Free)DOS floppy images are found below here:

https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/mailman/message/35557316/

Keep in mind that a 1.44 MB floppy doesn't hold many files (e.g. a
full FD "BASE" won't fit) and isn't actively used by most users
anymore (even in FreeDOS circles). Heck, floppies aren't even made
anymore, and most modern x86 machines lack the drives (although you
can probably still buy a USB floppy drive like I did). Thus it's
somewhat ignored in favor of newer, more popular media. So there is no
"full" install via floppy, thus you must figure things out manually
(for the most part). Networking (using a working packet driver) helps
tremendously. Otherwise you're stuck with copying manually
(sneakernet).

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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Karen Lewellen-2
In reply to this post by Dennis Fenton
From: Dennis Fenton <[hidden email]>

Thanks. I'll try diskcopy.

SentafromamyaBlackBerrya10asmartphoneaonatheaBellanetwork.
a Original Message a
From: Rugxulo
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 12:49 AM
To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS.
Reply To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS.
Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Hi,

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 10:56 PM, Felix Miata <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I just looked inside http://www.freedos.org/download/download/FD12FLOPPY.zip
> "boot floppy", and a 3.5" 1.44M floppy. My floppy has 1457664 total bytes,
2847
> 512 byte sectors. The image downloaded is 1474560 bytes, so the downloaded
image
> would not fit here either.

I downloaded the above (FD12FLOPPY.zip) and two of my own images
(BARE_DOS and MetaDOS). All of them have the same size (1474560). A
simple "file *.img" tells me that they all have 2880 sectors. I've
written a few real floppies in recent years with some of these and had
no obvious problems.

The obvious tool to use, among a million others variations, would be DISKCOPY:

http://help.fdos.org/en/hhstndrd/base/diskcopy.htm

(Here's some alternatives.)

https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/mailman/message/35297505/

> -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
> words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

So, just for completeness, (direct or indirect) links to a bunch of
(Free)DOS floppy images are found below here:

https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/mailman/message/35557316/

Keep in mind that a 1.44 MB floppy doesn't hold many files (e.g. a
full FD "BASE" won't fit) and isn't actively used by most users
anymore (even in FreeDOS circles). Heck, floppies aren't even made
anymore, and most modern x86 machines lack the drives (although you
can probably still buy a USB floppy drive like I did). Thus it's
somewhat ignored in favor of newer, more popular media. So there is no
"full" install via floppy, thus you must figure things out manually
(for the most part). Networking (using a working packet driver) helps
tremendously. Otherwise you're stuck with copying manually
(sneakernet).

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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Dennis Fenton
In reply to this post by Jerome Shidel
Thanks. I'll try.

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Bell network.
  Original Message  
From: Jerome Shidel
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 7:17 AM
To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS.
Reply To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS.
Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] boot floppy disk image too big for a disk


> On Mar 23, 2017, at 11:56 PM, Felix Miata <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I just looked inside http://www.freedos.org/download/download/FD12FLOPPY.zip 
> "boot floppy", and a 3.5" 1.44M floppy. My floppy has 1457664 total bytes, 2847
> 512 byte sectors. The image downloaded is 1474560 bytes, so the downloaded image
> would not fit here either.

I see where the confusion may be coming from.

After formatting a floppy image using FreeDOS, it states:

1,474,560 bytes total disk space (disk size)
1,456,664 bytes available on disk (free clusters)

It would appear that the number 1457664 is the usable empty free space on the disk once it has been low level formatted and then formatted with the standard DOS file system. So, you probably do have a correct sized floppy diskette. However, you will need to use the appropriate tool to place the floppy image file onto the diskette. Other messages in this thread mention programs like rawrite & dd. These all work very well for this task.

Jerome
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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Karen Lewellen-2
In reply to this post by Dennis Fenton
From: Dennis Fenton <[hidden email]>

Thanks. I'll try.

SentafromamyaBlackBerrya10asmartphoneaonatheaBellanetwork.
a Original Message a
From: Jerome Shidel
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 7:17 AM
To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS.
Reply To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS.
Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] boot floppy disk image too big for a disk


> On Mar 23, 2017, at 11:56 PM, Felix Miata <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I just looked inside http://www.freedos.org/download/download/FD12FLOPPY.zip
> "boot floppy", and a 3.5" 1.44M floppy. My floppy has 1457664 total bytes,
2847
> 512 byte sectors. The image downloaded is 1474560 bytes, so the downloaded
image
> would not fit here either.

I see where the confusion may be coming from.

After formatting a floppy image using FreeDOS, it states:

1,474,560 bytes total disk space (disk size)
1,456,664 bytes available on disk (free clusters)

It would appear that the number 1457664 is the usable empty free space on the
disk once it has been low level formatted and then formatted with the standard
DOS file system. So, you probably do have a correct sized floppy diskette.
However, you will need to use the appropriate tool to place the floppy image
file onto the diskette. Other messages in this thread mention programs like
rawrite & dd. These all work very well for this task.

Jerome
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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Karen Lewellen-2
In reply to this post by Dennis Fenton
From: Jerome Shidel <[hidden email]>


A 1.44MB 3.5rCY DS HD floppy disk is 1,474,560 bytes when formatted. (2MB
unformatted)

It used 512 byte sectors, 18 sectors per track, 80 tracks per side and is/was a
two sided media.

512 * 18 * 80 * 2 = 1474560 / 1024 = 1.44MB floppy.

More information on this can be found at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_floppy_disk_formats

Also, on Mac, Unix and Linux dd will write the disk image fine with a command
like:

sudo dd if=FD12FLOPPY.img of=/dev/fd0

(or similar)

As a side note, PC-DOS 7 used oddly formatted diskettes for its install media.
These provided a capacity lager than 1.44MB on its 3.5rCY install media. This
was good to reduce the number of diskettes required. But, it made it more
difficult to clone the original floppy disks for backup purposes. Also, it was
not 100% compatible with all floppy drives and could cause other headaches as
well.

Jerome
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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Karen Lewellen-2
In reply to this post by Dennis Fenton
From: Jerome Shidel <[hidden email]>


> On Mar 23, 2017, at 11:56 PM, Felix Miata <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I just looked inside http://www.freedos.org/download/download/FD12FLOPPY.zip
> "boot floppy", and a 3.5" 1.44M floppy. My floppy has 1457664 total bytes,
2847
> 512 byte sectors. The image downloaded is 1474560 bytes, so the downloaded
image
> would not fit here either.

I see where the confusion may be coming from.

After formatting a floppy image using FreeDOS, it states:

1,474,560 bytes total disk space (disk size)
1,456,664 bytes available on disk (free clusters)

It would appear that the number 1457664 is the usable empty free space on the
disk once it has been low level formatted and then formatted with the standard
DOS file system. So, you probably do have a correct sized floppy diskette.
However, you will need to use the appropriate tool to place the floppy image
file onto the diskette. Other messages in this thread mention programs like
rawrite & dd. These all work very well for this task.

Jerome
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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Karen Lewellen-2
In reply to this post by Dennis Fenton
From: Ralf Quint <[hidden email]>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--===============1656748613992134465==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
        boundary="------------3E16757BA8FAC21C53D0B19F"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------3E16757BA8FAC21C53D0B19F
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 3/24/2017 5:42 AM, Dennis Fenton wrote:
> I was just trying to simply copy it. I get an insufficient space message.
That is to be expected.

A disk image is exactly that, a sector by sector image of EVERY sector
on the disk. That includes those of the boot sector (includes the
BPB-BIOS Paramter Block),  14 sectors for the root directory and 18
sectors for the two copies of FAT12. Those 33 sectors leave on a
formatted 1.44MB floppy disk 2847 sectors (out of 2880 sectors of an
unformatted disk).

To write a floppy disk IMAGE to a floppy, you need a program that writes
that image SECTOR FOR SECTOR back to the disk, not as a single file as
you have tried.

On Unix/Linux systems, the easiest way to achive that is to use the "dd"
command or WinRaWrite on a Windows system (or rawrite if you have
another DOS only system). I personally used for probably more than two
decades by now a Shareware program called WinImage, which also does
works nicely to create quickly images from floppy disks or CD-ROMs...

Ralf


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<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/24/2017 5:42 AM, Dennis Fenton
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:[hidden email]"
      type="cite">
      <div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
        'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
        text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I
        was just trying to simply copy it. I get an insufficient space
        message. </div>
    </blockquote>
    That is to be expected.<br>
    <br>
    A disk image is exactly that, a sector by sector image of EVERY
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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Eric Auer-3
In reply to this post by Felix Miata-3

Hi Felix and Dennis,

> I just looked inside http://www.freedos.org/download/download/FD12FLOPPY.zip 
> "boot floppy", and a 3.5" 1.44M floppy. My floppy has 1457664 total bytes, 2847
> 512 byte sectors. The image downloaded is 1474560 bytes, so the downloaded image
> would not fit here either.

That is a misunderstanding. The FLOPPY really is 80 tracks, 2 sides,
18 sectors per track, 512 bytes per sector: 1474560 bytes is correct.

However, if you want to put a FILE on a floppy, then the maximum
size for the FILE is less, because some space is used by the FAT
filesystem. So 1457664 is the size left for you to put files on.

This is why the boot floppy disk image has to be copied with some
special tools (Linux: dd, DOS: diskcopy, Windows: ..., Mac: ...)
which copy contents, filesystem, boot sector etc. all at once.

This also is why you do not see files IN that single image file
in FD12FLOPPY.zip: You would have to "open" the file as a FAT
filesystem to see the files that you will later see on your disk
after putting the diskimage as a whole on the floppy.

If we would offer the files separately in the ZIP, you would be
able to see and edit them at once, which is good, BUT you would
need a separate tool to install a boot sector to make it bootable,
which is inconvenient, because SYS is only available for DOS and
similar tools for other OS (like makebootfat or sys-freedos.pl
for Linux) would need specific command line options to produce
optimized DOS boot sectors.

Regards, Eric



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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Ralf Quint
In reply to this post by Dennis Fenton
On 3/24/2017 5:42 AM, Dennis Fenton wrote:
I was just trying to simply copy it. I get an insufficient space message.
That is to be expected.

A disk image is exactly that, a sector by sector image of EVERY sector on the disk. That includes those of the boot sector (includes the BPB-BIOS Paramter Block),  14 sectors for the root directory and 18 sectors for the two copies of FAT12. Those 33 sectors leave on a formatted 1.44MB floppy disk 2847 sectors (out of 2880 sectors of an unformatted disk).

To write a floppy disk IMAGE to a floppy, you need a program that writes that image SECTOR FOR SECTOR back to the disk, not as a single file as you have tried.

On Unix/Linux systems, the easiest way to achive that is to use the "dd" command or WinRaWrite on a Windows system (or rawrite if you have another DOS only system). I personally used for probably more than two decades by now a Shareware program called WinImage, which also does works nicely to create quickly images from floppy disks or CD-ROMs...

Ralf

Virus-free. www.avast.com

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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Karen Lewellen-2
In reply to this post by Dennis Fenton
From: Ralf Quint <[hidden email]>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--===============4382838559081096216==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
        boundary="------------4D1B7CFD38F21CC1995B7B76"

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--------------4D1B7CFD38F21CC1995B7B76
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On 3/23/2017 9:47 PM, Gregg Eshelman wrote:

> It is possible to format a floppy a bit over size. Most drives will
> accommodate 2 to 4 extra tracks. Depending on the drive and the
> controller it's possible to alter the number of sectors per track, but
> all tracks must have the same number of sectors. Typically, altering
> the number of sectors renders the format non-bootable.
>
> Schenk & Horn CopyStar is one such program. It's old, originally from
> 1994, but it's known to work on Windows 2000, Server 2003 and older.
> I've not tried it on XP and later. Probably not compatible with 64 bit
> Windows. http://www.programfiles.com/Default.asp?LinkId=13681
>
> Microsoft used an over-capacity format they called DMF. For programs
> (like Windows 95) where the first disk had to be bootable it was
> standard 1.44M.
>
> IBM used a different over-capacity format for OS/2's install disks,
> but nothing included with OS/2 could write data to the disks, despite
> the inclusion of a utility to create blank disks with that format.
> (The largest all floppy install I ever did was OS/2 Warp 3.0, followed
> by a couple of large updates.)
Sorry, but all that is irrelevant to the problem at hand. He tried to
copy an image file, that includes the file system as a single file onto
a floppy disk that already contained a file system. He needed to use a
program that write that image file sector by sector onto a floppy disk.
And that way it will fit perfectly, no overformatting needed...
>
> If only the entire OEM computer industry had wholeheartedly adopted
> the 2.88M floppy, instead of only IBM and Compaq sorta halfway
> supporting it. "Hey look! We're making 2.88M floppy drives standard on
> ALL our computers! How about YOU, Hewlett Packard, Packard Bell,
> Gateway 2000... *Apple*? You wanna fall behind us? Keep using that
> obsolete 1.44M!"
The problem with the general adaptation of 2.88MB floppy disks was that
those drives did have compatibility issues with reliably reading and
more so, WRITING 1.44MB disks...

Ralf


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<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/23/2017 9:47 PM, Gregg Eshelman
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:[hidden email]"
      type="cite">
      <div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff;
        font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
        Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px">
        <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490315626629_169187">It is possible
          to format a floppy a bit over size. Most drives will
          accommodate 2 to 4 extra tracks. Depending on the drive and
          the controller it's possible to alt
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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Dennis Fenton
In reply to this post by Eric Auer-3
I see.

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Bell network.
  Original Message  
From: Eric Auer
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 11:38 AM
To: [hidden email]
Reply To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS.
Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] boot floppy disk image too big for a disk


Hi Felix and Dennis,

> I just looked inside http://www.freedos.org/download/download/FD12FLOPPY.zip 
> "boot floppy", and a 3.5" 1.44M floppy. My floppy has 1457664 total bytes, 2847
> 512 byte sectors. The image downloaded is 1474560 bytes, so the downloaded image
> would not fit here either.

That is a misunderstanding. The FLOPPY really is 80 tracks, 2 sides,
18 sectors per track, 512 bytes per sector: 1474560 bytes is correct.

However, if you want to put a FILE on a floppy, then the maximum
size for the FILE is less, because some space is used by the FAT
filesystem. So 1457664 is the size left for you to put files on.

This is why the boot floppy disk image has to be copied with some
special tools (Linux: dd, DOS: diskcopy, Windows: ..., Mac: ...)
which copy contents, filesystem, boot sector etc. all at once.

This also is why you do not see files IN that single image file
in FD12FLOPPY.zip: You would have to "open" the file as a FAT
filesystem to see the files that you will later see on your disk
after putting the diskimage as a whole on the floppy.

If we would offer the files separately in the ZIP, you would be
able to see and edit them at once, which is good, BUT you would
need a separate tool to install a boot sector to make it bootable,
which is inconvenient, because SYS is only available for DOS and
similar tools for other OS (like makebootfat or sys-freedos.pl
for Linux) would need specific command line options to produce
optimized DOS boot sectors.

Regards, Eric



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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Karen Lewellen-2
In reply to this post by Dennis Fenton
From: Dennis Fenton <[hidden email]>

I see.

SentafromamyaBlackBerrya10asmartphoneaonatheaBellanetwork.
a Original Message a
From: Eric Auer
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 11:38 AM
To: [hidden email]
Reply To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS.
Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] boot floppy disk image too big for a disk


Hi Felix and Dennis,

> I just looked inside http://www.freedos.org/download/download/FD12FLOPPY.zip
> "boot floppy", and a 3.5" 1.44M floppy. My floppy has 1457664 total bytes,
2847
> 512 byte sectors. The image downloaded is 1474560 bytes, so the downloaded
image
> would not fit here either.

That is a misunderstanding. The FLOPPY really is 80 tracks, 2 sides,
18 sectors per track, 512 bytes per sector: 1474560 bytes is correct.

However, if you want to put a FILE on a floppy, then the maximum
size for the FILE is less, because some space is used by the FAT
filesystem. So 1457664 is the size left for you to put files on.

This is why the boot floppy disk image has to be copied with some
special tools (Linux: dd, DOS: diskcopy, Windows: ..., Mac: ...)
which copy contents, filesystem, boot sector etc. all at once.

This also is why you do not see files IN that single image file
in FD12FLOPPY.zip: You would have to "open" the file as a FAT
filesystem to see the files that you will later see on your disk
after putting the diskimage as a whole on the floppy.

If we would offer the files separately in the ZIP, you would be
able to see and edit them at once, which is good, BUT you would
need a separate tool to install a boot sector to make it bootable,
which is inconvenient, because SYS is only available for DOS and
similar tools for other OS (like makebootfat or sys-freedos.pl
for Linux) would need specific command line options to produce
optimized DOS boot sectors.

Regards, Eric



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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Dennis Fenton
In reply to this post by Ralf Quint
Thanks

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Bell network.
From: Ralf Quint
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 12:15 PM
Reply To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS.
Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

On 3/24/2017 5:42 AM, Dennis Fenton wrote:
I was just trying to simply copy it. I get an insufficient space message.
That is to be expected.

A disk image is exactly that, a sector by sector image of EVERY sector on the disk. That includes those of the boot sector (includes the BPB-BIOS Paramter Block),  14 sectors for the root directory and 18 sectors for the two copies of FAT12. Those 33 sectors leave on a formatted 1.44MB floppy disk 2847 sectors (out of 2880 sectors of an unformatted disk).

To write a floppy disk IMAGE to a floppy, you need a program that writes that image SECTOR FOR SECTOR back to the disk, not as a single file as you have tried.

On Unix/Linux systems, the easiest way to achive that is to use the "dd" command or WinRaWrite on a Windows system (or rawrite if you have another DOS only system). I personally used for probably more than two decades by now a Shareware program called WinImage, which also does works nicely to create quickly images from floppy disks or CD-ROMs...

Ralf

Virus-free. www.avast.com


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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Karen Lewellen-2
In reply to this post by Dennis Fenton
From: Dennis Fenton <[hidden email]>

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<html><head></head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" lang="en-US"
style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;">
                                                                          <div
style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro',
sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Thanks</div>

                        <div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial;
font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br
style="display:initial"></div>

                                                                 <div
style="font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);">Sent&nbsp;from&nbsp;my&nbsp;BlackBerry&nbsp;10&nbsp;smartphone&nbsp;on&nbsp;the&nbsp;Bell&nbsp;network.</div>                                                                                                                                                                                  <table width="100%" style="background-color:white;border-spacing:0px;"> <tbody><tr><td colspan="2" style="font-size: initial; text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">                           <div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; font-family: Tahoma, 'BB Alpha Sans', 'Slate Pro'; font-size: 10pt;">  <div><b>From: </b>Ralf Quint</div><div><b>Sent: </b>Friday, March 24, 2017 12:15 PM</div><div><b>To: </b>[hidden email]</div><div><b>Reply To: </b>Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS.</div><div><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Freedos-user] boot floppy disk ima
ge too big for a disk</div></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(186, 188, 209); border-top-width: 1pt; font-size: initial; text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"></div><br><div id="_originalContent" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">

    <meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252" http-equiv="Content-Type">


    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/24/2017 5:42 AM, Dennis Fenton
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:[hidden email]"
type="cite">
      <div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
        'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
        text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I
        was just trying to simply copy it. I get an insufficient space
        message. </div>
    </blockquote>
    That is to be expected.<br>
    <br>
    A disk image is exactly that, a sector by sector image of EVERY
    sector on the disk. That includes those of the boot sector (includes
    the BPB-BIOS Paramter Block),&nbsp; 14 sectors for the root directory and
    18 sectors for the two copies of FAT12. Those 33 sectors leave on a
    formatted 1.44MB floppy disk 2847 sectors (out of 2880 sectors of an
    unformatted disk).<br>
    <br>
    To write a floppy disk IMAGE to a floppy, you need a program that
    writes that image SECTOR FOR SECTOR back to the disk, not as a
    single file as you have tried.<br>
    <br>
    On Unix/Linux systems, the easiest way to achive that is to use the
    "dd" command or WinRaWrite on a Windows system (or rawrite if you
    have another DOS only system). I personally used for probably more
    than two decades by now a Shareware program called WinImage, which
    also does works nicely to create quickly images from floppy disks or
    CD-ROMs...<br>
    <br>
    Ralf<br>
  <br>
<table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
        <tbody><tr>
        <td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&amp;utm_source=link&amp;utm_campaign=sig-email&amp;utm_content=emailclient&amp;utm_term=icon" target="_blank"><img src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"></a></td>
                <td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: #41424e; font-size: 13px;
font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 18px;">Virus-free. <a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&amp;utm_source=link&amp;utm_campaign=sig-email&amp;utm_content=emailclient&amp;utm_term=link" target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avast.com</a>
                </td>
        </tr>
</tbody></table>

<br><!--end of _originalContent --></div></body></html>


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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Ralf Quint
In reply to this post by Gregg Eshelman
On 3/23/2017 9:47 PM, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
It is possible to format a floppy a bit over size. Most drives will accommodate 2 to 4 extra tracks. Depending on the drive and the controller it's possible to alter the number of sectors per track, but all tracks must have the same number of sectors. Typically, altering the number of sectors renders the format non-bootable.

Schenk & Horn CopyStar is one such program. It's old, originally from 1994, but it's known to work on Windows 2000, Server 2003 and older. I've not tried it on XP and later. Probably not compatible with 64 bit Windows. http://www.programfiles.com/Default.asp?LinkId=13681

Microsoft used an over-capacity format they called DMF. For programs (like Windows 95) where the first disk had to be bootable it was standard 1.44M.

IBM used a different over-capacity format for OS/2's install disks, but nothing included with OS/2 could write data to the disks, despite the inclusion of a utility to create blank disks with that format. (The largest all floppy install I ever did was OS/2 Warp 3.0, followed by a couple of large updates.)
Sorry, but all that is irrelevant to the problem at hand. He tried to copy an image file, that includes the file system as a single file onto a floppy disk that already contained a file system. He needed to use a program that write that image file sector by sector onto a floppy disk. And that way it will fit perfectly, no overformatting needed...

If only the entire OEM computer industry had wholeheartedly adopted the 2.88M floppy, instead of only IBM and Compaq sorta halfway supporting it. "Hey look! We're making 2.88M floppy drives standard on ALL our computers! How about YOU, Hewlett Packard, Packard Bell, Gateway 2000... *Apple*? You wanna fall behind us? Keep using that obsolete 1.44M!"
The problem with the general adaptation of 2.88MB floppy disks was that those drives did have compatibility issues with reliably reading and more so, WRITING 1.44MB disks...

Ralf

Virus-free. www.avast.com

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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Dennis Fenton
In reply to this post by Ralf Quint
I downloaded and installed WinImage 9.0 on my win98 computer. It has a floppy drive. I successfully wrote the img file to a floppy.
Another issue occurred to me. My cd-rom drive is a SCSI external type.
The new boot floppy has an fdconfig.sys and an autoexec‎.bat file. I'm thinking I need to add lines to both to recognize the SCSI drive when it boots.

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Bell network.
From: Ralf Quint
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 12:15 PM
Reply To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS.
Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

On 3/24/2017 5:42 AM, Dennis Fenton wrote:
I was just trying to simply copy it. I get an insufficient space message.
That is to be expected.

A disk image is exactly that, a sector by sector image of EVERY sector on the disk. That includes those of the boot sector (includes the BPB-BIOS Paramter Block),  14 sectors for the root directory and 18 sectors for the two copies of FAT12. Those 33 sectors leave on a formatted 1.44MB floppy disk 2847 sectors (out of 2880 sectors of an unformatted disk).

To write a floppy disk IMAGE to a floppy, you need a program that writes that image SECTOR FOR SECTOR back to the disk, not as a single file as you have tried.

On Unix/Linux systems, the easiest way to achive that is to use the "dd" command or WinRaWrite on a Windows system (or rawrite if you have another DOS only system). I personally used for probably more than two decades by now a Shareware program called WinImage, which also does works nicely to create quickly images from floppy disks or CD-ROMs...

Ralf

Virus-free. www.avast.com


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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Karen Lewellen-2
In reply to this post by Dennis Fenton
From: Dennis Fenton <[hidden email]>

--===============8131631414762694562==
Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" lang="en-US"
style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;">
                                                                          <div
style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro',
sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I downloaded and installed WinImage 9.0
on my win98 computer. It has a floppy drive. I successfully wrote the img file
to a floppy.</div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Another issue
occurred to me. My cd-rom drive is a SCSI external type.</div><div
style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro',
sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">The new boot floppy has an fdconfig.sys
and an autoexecrCA.bat file. I'm thinking I need to add lines to both to
recognize the SCSI drive when it boots.</div>

                  <div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></div>


                         <div style="font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align:
initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);">Sent&nbsp;from&nbsp;my&nbsp;BlackBerry&nbsp;10&nbsp;smartphone&nbsp;on&nbsp;the&nbsp;Bell&nbsp;network.</div>                                                                                                                                                                                  <table width="100%" style="background-color:white;border-spacing:0px;"> <tbody><tr><td colspan="2" style="font-size: initial; text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">                           <div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; font-family: Tahoma, 'BB Alpha Sans', 'Slate Pro'; font-size: 10pt;">  <div><b>From: </b>Ralf Quint</div><div><b>Sent: </b>Friday, March 24, 2017 12:15 PM</div><div><b>To: </b>[hidden email]</div><div><b>Reply To: </b>Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS.</div><div><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Freedos-user] boot floppy disk image too big for
 a disk</div></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(186, 188, 209); border-top-width: 1pt; font-size: initial; text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"></div><br><div id="_originalContent" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">

    <meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252" http-equiv="Content-Type">


    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/24/2017 5:42 AM, Dennis Fenton
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:[hidden email]"
type="cite">
      <div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
        'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
        text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I
        was just trying to simply copy it. I get an insufficient space
        message. </div>
    </blockquote>
    That is to be expected.<br>
    <br>
    A disk image is exactly that, a sector by sector image of EVERY
    sector on the disk. That includes those of the boot sector (includes
    the BPB-BIOS Paramter Block),&nbsp; 14 sectors for the root directory and
    18 sectors for the two copies of FAT12. Those 33 sectors leave on a
    formatted 1.44MB floppy disk 2847 sectors (out of 2880 sectors of an
    unformatted disk).<br>
    <br>
    To write a floppy disk IMAGE to a floppy, you need a program that
    writes that image SECTOR FOR SECTOR back to the disk, not as a
    single file as you have tried.<br>
    <br>
    On Unix/Linux systems, the easiest way to achive that is to use the
    "dd" command or WinRaWrite on a Windows system (or rawrite if you
    have another DOS only system). I personally used for probably more
    than two decades by now a Shareware program called WinImage, which
    also does works nicely to create quickly images from floppy disks or
    CD-ROMs...<br>
    <br>
    Ralf<br>
  <br>
<table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
        <tbody><tr>
        <td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&amp;utm_source=link&amp;utm_campaign=sig-email&amp;utm_content=emailclient&amp;utm_term=icon" target="_blank"><img src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"></a></td>
                <td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: #41424e; font-size: 13px;
font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 18px;">Virus-free. <a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&amp;utm_source=link&amp;utm_campaign=sig-email&amp;utm_content=emailclient&amp;utm_term=link" target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avast.com</a>
                </td>
        </tr>
</tbody></table>

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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Eric Auer-3
In reply to this post by Dennis Fenton

Hi Dennis,

> I downloaded and installed WinImage 9.0 on my win98 computer. It has a
> floppy drive. I successfully wrote the img file to a floppy.
> Another issue occurred to me. My cd-rom drive is a SCSI external type.

That might be a problem, depending on your SCSI controller
and whether it has good BIOS support etc etc. I assume you
refer to the CD-ROM of the PC where you want to install DOS?

By the way, does that PC also have another operating system?
Do you want to replace that by DOS? Or install both side by
side as "dual boot"? The latter requires special steps, the
former can mean that current disk contents get overwritten.

> The new boot floppy has an fdconfig.sys and an autoexec‎.bat file. I'm thinking
> I need to add lines to both to recognize the SCSI drive when it boots.

If you have good DOS drivers for the drive and know how to
configure them, then you can do that. If you plan to install
DOS on a computer where you already have or can install some
operating system with easy internet, then I would recommend
another method: Copy the ISO file of FreeDOS to a FAT drive
on the PC where you want to install DOS and then "mount" it
as if it would be the CD of FreeDOS :-) If the boot floppy
has no automatic support for that, then I am sure that some
extra explanation of this trick could be given by Rugxulo or
Jerome, with examples of what to put where in fdconfig and
autoexec on the boot floppy :-)

The idea is that you need no hardware specific drivers at all
to open the ISO if you already have it on the future DOS PC,
so you avoid all worries about SCSI and CDROM drivers then.

You still do need that special ISO driver, of course, but as
that is not specific to certain hardware, it is easy to use.

Cheers, Eric



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Re: boot floppy disk image too big for a disk

Karen Lewellen-2
In reply to this post by Dennis Fenton
From: Ralf Quint <[hidden email]>

On 3/24/2017 4:36 PM, Dennis Fenton wrote:
> I want the fat32 in order to see drives and files on my win98 computer if I
use Laplink. I was also hoping FreeDOS will do a better job of getting Arachne
online. It reports low memory with MS-DOS. I have run memmaker several times.
Using FAT32 does not help you in seeing drives and files on another
computer, either via laplink or by other means. This is either handled
by the program itself (as in the case of Laplink) or it is matter of the
network redirector being used...

As for being low on memory, the main source of your problems are likely
being the use of the SCSI/ASPI drivers as you mentioned in a previous
post. Those things are/were huge in terms of DOS in general. FreeDOS
won't give you here much of an advantage over any other DOS...

Ralf

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